Well, I'm not blind to the fact that our nation has a really shameful history of doing horrible things to vulnerable people. And Anacostia Riverkeeper makes a point to look at environmental justice and weave that into the fabric of every decision that we make, and a lot of the work that we do in restoring the river is focused directly on environmental justice. But if I'm a, you know, if I'm a consumer here in Washington, D.C., I make 65 trips a year to the grocery store and I get, I bring home six bags, that's 390 bags. At five cents a bag that's $19.  In fact, it's such a low number that the Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Price Index they don't, you know, they measure everything. They have this relative metric where they measure the relative impact of the rising or falling cost of things as it relates to the CPI and bags aren't even on that list.    

If you're just joining us, you're listening to TELL ME MORE from NPR News. We're talking about taxes, fees, intended to reduce the use of plastic shopping bags, in particular, shopping bags in general or single-use shopping bags in general. Our guests are Michael Bolinder of the Anacostia Riverkeeper. That's an environmental group here in Washington that supports and actually gets revenue from the bag fee that exists in Washington, D.C. Nick Gillespie is editor of the libertarian journal Reason. And that's a journal that's been that's been opposed to these for a long time.   

So Nick, I'm going to push you again on what's-the-harm question...    Sure.     ...because you raise that kind of the air pollution question. The argument that environmentalists make is these are irreplaceable resources, like clean water, clean air, you know, everybody needs those. And this is, if there is any area in which some governmental involvement is appropriate it is this because no individual on his or her own can protect this dimmable led filament bulb, and that everyone suffers if this resource is damaged beyond repair. To that end, people say well, five cents, what's the harm?